Author: Starpower
In the recently held ‘DePIN Power’ podcast, Starpower co-founder Laser and Messari researcher Dylan had an in-depth conversation discussing the application and future development of DePIN (Decentralized Physical Network) in the energy sector.
Dylan is one of the top experts in the DEP and RWA (Real World Assets) fields. He shared the latest trends in the cryptocurrency market and expressed optimistic prospects for DEP as a potential leader in the next bull run.
Laser introduced the progress of Starpower in energy DEP and discussed the importance of Block chain platform in promoting DEP ecology. This conversation delved into the key issues of energy DEP, global market opportunities, and the considerations behind technology selection, bringing new inspiration to the combination of DEP and energy industry.
【Click to watch the full podcast】
Opening and Guest Introduction
Laser invites Dylan to join the podcast to introduce the background of the Starpower project and the popularity of DePIN. Dylan introduces his work at Messari and past experience.
Laser
I am very happy to invite you today, Dylan. You can be said to be one of the top experts in the DEP field, always bringing many profound insights. It is my honor to have you here today. Let me briefly introduce our situation.
I am a co-founder of Starpower. We are a DePIN project in the energy field, and currently, in terms of equipment activation, we should be the largest energy DePIN project. Today, we want to host some podcasts around the theme of DePIN.
We would love to understand your personal background and what prompted you to join Messari, and we would also like to hear your recent thoughts on this industry. It can be said that this field is very popular now.
Dylan
Thank you for inviting me. I am a research analyst at Messari. I am mainly responsible for DePIN, RWA (Real World Asset) infrastructure, and some AI-related content. This is the work content of our enterprise team.
Regarding my background, I used to work at T. Rowe Price, a large asset management company in the United States, as a member of their digital asset team. I assisted in formulating their tokenization strategy and participated in some of their initial investment outlooks, mainly focusing on mainstream encryption assets, but also including how to integrate these strategies into their multi-asset department. I have also worked in the field of encryption venture capital before. During my time in university (Princeton), I co-founded a blockchain club and have been involved in various projects over the past 5 to 7 years. In the early days, I also participated in a real estate tokenization startup project, attempting to tokenize houses by dividing them into shares for leasing properties.
Right now I mainly follow DePIN, which is definitely one of the hottest zones in the encryption field at the moment. I also think it’s the most interesting on a knowledge level.
Current encryption market dynamics
Dylan shared the market dynamics brought by Trump’s election, including CryptocurrencyBull Market and the revival of DeFi.
Laser
Great, great. It sounds like you’ve been involved in the blockchain industry since college. I also saw in your profile that you founded a blockchain-related organization during your university days, then moved into the venture capital field, and eventually joined Messari. Messari is definitely a leading research institution in this industry. So, you have a wealth of experience, from academia to non-research fields. Based on your experience, the encryption industry is very hot right now. Have you seen any new trends or interesting developments? Of course, DEP is one of them.
Dylan
Yes, I think the biggest news right now is the election. Trump won the election, triggering a bull market in the cryptocurrency and stock markets, and even broader market sentiment has been affected. This is largely because Trump has shown support for cryptocurrency. He has promised some measures, such as establishing a strategic BTC reserve for the United States and ending the US SEC’s crackdown on the encryption industry. He also mentioned the release of Silk Road founder Ross Ulbricht, overall very supportive of cryptocurrency. This has triggered a wave of BTC-led bull market, with BTC recently surpassing $90,000, reaching as high as $93,000 at the time of this conversation.
Other markets are also following this upswing, such as Decentralized Finance performing very well, some even calling it the “Decentralized Finance renaissance”. Derivatives platforms like Hyper Liquid are very popular, and may soon release Tokens, while Jupiter and Raydium are also performing well. In terms of infrastructure, Solana, Avalanche, and even the underperforming Ethereum have all rebounded this year. DEP has also performed well, such as Helium and other public Token projects, like io.net and Xnet, all having a good performance in the past week. Overall, the sentiment in the crypto market is very positive. In addition, the Fed plans to cut interest rates in December, coupled with the overall improvement in the economic environment, making the market even more optimistic. This is the current overall situation.
The potential of DEP as a leader in the bull run
Laser mentioned the possibility of DePIN as a leader in the Bull Market, and Dylan analyzed the current situation in the DePIN field and its potential future impact.
Laser
Yes, I think that after Trump was elected, the entire encryption industry was indeed greatly boosted, and we also reached a historical high. As for the specific zone of the encryption industry, I found that DEP-- although I may have some personal bias-- may become the leader of this Bull Market. I want to hear your opinion. Is it possible for DEP to lead this Bull Market, or become one of the hottest narratives in the Bull Market?
I remember when we first established Starpower two years ago, few people knew about DEP, especially our team located in Australia and East Asia. At that time, almost no one was talking about this topic. But after two years, this topic has become hot. I would love to hear your thoughts on the DEP industry, whether it could become the leader of this bull market, and what its long-term prospects are.
Dylan
Of course. In the past year, the DEP field has achieved a lot of success. The initial financing rose by more than 500% compared to the same period last year, and the performance of the public Token was similar. If we only compare the third quarter, the financing rose by nearly 700%. We see that the interest of investors in DEP has greatly increased, whether in the early private market or in the public market. Currently, there are many exciting DEP protocols emerging, covering areas such as energy, wireless communication, etc., such as the RTK base station of GEONET, the CDN network of Broadcast and Pipe, and the GPU computing network. Almost every week, new projects emerge. These DEP projects are solving very big problems and facing a broad and expandable market. I think this makes DEP a potential leader in this round of the market, and even in the next few years.
However, at present, there are not many public Tokens for DePIN, and many promising protocols are still in the Testnet or early stages. These projects are more focused on the construction of business, tokenomics, and game theory, rather than rushing to launch Tokens. I think this is a good thing. The biggest advantage of DePIN is that it creates real-world value through encryption technology and builds real businesses. I think this kind of value creation is something that other industries cannot achieve. So, in terms of the narrative around DePIN, such as the already released Tokens like Render, io.net, and Helium, I believe they will perform very well in this market cycle. Once those early protocols launch Tokens and consolidate their businesses, DePIN will experience a major breakout and may become one of the largest, if not the largest, zones in the encryption industry in the next 5 to 10 years.
The importance of the energy sector in DEP IN (00:09:41 - 00:12:30)
The two sides discussed the huge potential of DEP in the energy sector, especially in the deployment of solar panels, virtual power plants, and demand response.
Laser
Yes, we have recently seen the Token of Grass go online, and it has performed very well. I feel that in the next three to six months, DEP will be very hot.
Okay, let’s get back to the topic of energy. We have previously talked to some people in the DEP field, and some of them are very optimistic about energy-related DEP projects. In the past six months, three to five energy-related DEP projects have raised over 10 million US dollars each from institutions such as a16z, USV, Multicoin, etc. We have also raised funds from Alliance. I think it’s hard to find another DEP field with such momentum recently. What do you think about this?
Dylan
Yes, I think energy is indeed one of the most exciting subfields of this cycle. This is mainly because the opportunities in this field are huge. First, the world is striving to transition to cleaner energy, with many governments attempting to reduce carbon dioxide emissions. And clean energy, such as solar and wind power, is the best way to achieve this goal. Currently, solar energy is the cheapest source of energy globally, and DEP may be the best way to incentivize the installation and expansion of solar panels, at least in terms of capital efficiency. This is a huge opportunity, and top-tier venture capitalists have already recognized this.
In addition, there are many challenges in integrating solar panels and distributed energy resources into the grid. Coordinating these resources is a huge challenge, and virtual power plants and demand response programs can address real-time data issues and provide assistance in modernizing the grid. Therefore, incentivizing new solar deployments is a huge market. Analysts estimate that trillions of dollars are needed each year in the United States alone to upgrade the grid to accommodate renewable energy. DEP can address a large part of this problem, which is very meaningful. That’s why there are so many opportunities in this field and why it is exciting.
I believe that energy is one of the most significant narratives in this cycle. The wireless field has also performed well, such as Helium, which recently achieved eight-figure annualized revenue, and DAWN and XNET, which have also achieved good results. Of course, these are also trillion-dollar issues, but energy is a matter of survival and may be the world’s largest market. If DePIN can make a difference in the energy field, at any level, it would be a huge breakthrough.
Differences between different DePIN protocols (00:12:44 - 00:17:13)
Dylan analyzed three main issues and directions in the energy DePIN project: incentives for solar deployment, integration of distributed energy resources, and marketization of real-world assets.
Laser
Yes. I think another reason why energy DEP has become a hot area is its close relationship with AI. Marc and Ben recently discussed the issue of AI and energy again. On the one hand, it is due to the congestion caused by the increase in computational demand, and on the other hand, it is the congestion of the US power grid system, as well as the accelerated installation speed of solar panels. This is like an “The Impossible Triangle”, solving this problem is a huge challenge. Ensuring sustainable power supply and sustainable development of AI is a big issue. So energy DEP is like the “Twin Brother” of AI.
In addition, I would like to ask, energy is a very large field. You must have in-depth research in this field. Currently, there are many projects in this field. From your perspective, what are the differences between these projects? For example, one project follows this question, while another project follows another question. What are the reasons and differences behind them?
Dylan
Yes, I think every protocol in the energy sector is unique. Some protocols do address the same issues, while others address multiple issues. So it’s difficult to categorize all protocols into one. But I think the three biggest issues at the moment are:
The first is the deployment and installation of solar panels and solar power plants. Through Token rewards, people are encouraged to overcome the barriers to installing solar energy, whether it’s rooftop solar panels, solar power plants, or purchasing and connecting clean energy-related equipment such as batteries or electric vehicle charging stations. I think this is an important area, and Starpower is also doing this to some extent, as well as some other projects in the United States.
The second big issue is coordination. That is, integrating distributed energy resources (DER) into the grid. I think blockchain is the best way to solve this problem, because it provides verifiable on-chain data and can be connected to the DeFi blockchain network. The composability of blockchain allows it to collaborate with many applications to improve energy coordination efficiency. At the same time, it can also incentivize users to share their data, and even transfer their energy control to virtual power plant operators. These operators can create cost savings for the grid, which will be passed on to users.
The third major issue is the marketization of real-world assets (RWA), such as investing in solar projects. These take the form of tokenization of equity, where investors can invest and earn returns and profits, and these processes are entirely on-chain. This creates more liquidity for these assets, as their liquidity is very low in traditional markets. For example, investing in a solar power plant or wind turbine is very difficult in traditional markets. However, blockchain can provide a platform for tokenization and trading of these assets through built-in Decentralized Finance markets and networks.
I believe that these issues are closely interconnected, so many companies are working in these cross-disciplinary areas. At the same time, some companies are attempting peer-to-peer energy trading, which is a very complex issue and is still in the early and conceptual stages. So, I will categorize these issues into three types, and each protocol is solving these issues in its own way, and sometimes they solve all the issues simultaneously.
Focus on geographical regions and the DePIN protocol (00:17:25 - 00:18:47)
The two parties discussed the focus of different DePIN protocols in different geographical regions, as well as the potential for global expansion of these protocols.
Laser
Yes, I think different protocols also follow different geographical areas.
Dylan
Yes, yes, absolutely correct. For example, Daylight is completely focused on the United States, while Fuse is currently completely focused on Europe. There are also some projects that follow the Asian market, and some projects are global or intend to build a global virtual power plant. Therefore, different protocols have different ways and geographical divisions. At the same time, due to the huge size of the energy market (5 to 10 trillion dollars), I think there is not much substantive competition between these protocols at present, but more competition with Web2 and traditional solutions.
Laser
Yes, the space in this field is very large. If all the energy DEP projects of Web3 are put in a room, we may not even see each other, because there are too many things in this field.
Dylan
Completely agree, completely agree.
The performance of different Block chain platforms in the DePIN ecosystem (00:18:51 - 00:23:23)
Laser and Dylan discussed the deployment differences of the DePIN project on Solana, EVM, and other blockon-chain. Dylan analyzed the reasons why Solana is popular in the DePIN project.
Laser
I have another question. DEP is definitely one of the hottest narratives right now. We see many Layer 1 or Layer 2 blockchains pushing their DEP ecosystems, with Solana performing the best. We are also building on Solana.
After researching so many DEP projects, what do you think? Some projects are built on EVM, some on Solana, and some on IoTeX, Polygon. From a technical or economic perspective, what are the differences between them?
Dylan
Yes, I think one interesting aspect of DePIN is that it finally solves a real problem. It’s a real use case. I believe most underlying blockchains, whether it’s Solana, Polygon, or Ethereum, can support DePIN. However, we do see many protocols choosing to build on Solana or migrate to Solana.
One reason is that Solana has been very focused on becoming an easy-to-use Layer 1 blockchain over the past few years, with features such as low Money Laundering and high transaction capacity. This is very appealing to DePIN projects because they don’t want to deal with network congestion like Ethereum and don’t want to bother with understanding the experimental nature of Layer 2 or the Liquidity fragmentation issue.
So Solana naturally became a default choice. Solana’s team has also done a very good job in promoting and supporting the DEP project. In the view of many DEP projects, Solana is a relatively secure building platform because of its limited Layer 2 experiments. As for pure theoretical discussions about the degree of Decentralization or the “Twitter debate” between Solana and Ethereum, these are not important for DEP projects. DEP projects are more focused on solving their own problems, such as coordination and network bootstrapping. They just need a reliable and functioning underlying network.
Moreover, because many DePIN projects are built on Solana, the interoperability and composability between them becomes very easy. So Solana is gradually becoming the default building platform. The peaq you mentioned that was launched yesterday also has a very strong ecosystem. IoTeX also has a strong ecosystem. These blockchains attract many projects by providing modular and service-oriented solutions for DePIN projects. In the future, we will see whether Solana continues to be the main platform or whether there will be more decentralization and some DePIN projects choose more ‘customized’ solutions. This is how I would summarize the current situation.
Laser
Yes, personally, for the DePIN project, from a technical and deployment perspective, our top priority is ease of use and low Money Laundering. As you mentioned, whether it is completely Decentralization is not important to us. Because the goal of all DePIN projects, or the problems we want to solve, are real-world problems. For example, for all energy-related DePIN projects, our goal is to accelerate the development of renewable energy in the real world, meet real needs, and solve practical problems.
DePIN’s future outlook (00:23:23 - 00:25:10)
Dylan is looking forward to the future of DEP, predicting that DePIN will have further rise next year, especially after the launch of energy-related projects on Mainnet.
Laser
This is just my personal opinion. I know it may be a bit biased towards our side. What do you think? Is there anything else you would like to share before we finish?
Dylan
Yes, overall, as we discussed, I believe DePIN is one of the most exciting zones in the encryption field. It is addressing real-world problems, which is rare in the encryption field. We are seeing many phenomena that have not appeared in the encryption industry before, such as a very powerful infrastructure and founders with backgrounds in Web2 joining the DePIN field. They hope to solve long-standing problems in their industry through DePIN, which cannot be solved by traditional methods. This makes me very excited about DePIN.
I believe that what is being built now are some real businesses. For example, Glow, an energy-related project, already has a seven-figure revenue. Helium has reached eight-figure revenue, and Geodnet has achieved seven-figure revenue. We are seeing the emergence of on-chain revenue in DePIN, which was rarely seen in the encryption industry before, except in a few areas.
I believe that next year will be a very important year for DEP. We will see some protocols that already have a certain product-market fit continue to rise in revenue and business. Some of the most exciting projects, especially energy-related projects, will launch tokens on the Mainnet and truly expand and develop their ecosystems. This year we have already seen a crazy rise, and I believe next year will see an even bigger rise.
DePIN will become more well-known, not only within the encryption industry, but also expanding beyond the industry. We will see more exciting ideas and innovations, as well as more excellent founders entering this field. I am looking forward to the future.
Laser
Yes, I believe DEP can be a bridge between Web2 and Web3, allowing more people from Web2 to understand Web3 in a positive way, rather than with a negative image like FTX.
Closing Remarks and Guest Information (00:25:10 - 00:26:23)
Both parties summarized the conversation, and Dylan mentioned that his research findings can be found on Messari or Twitter, and he also hinted at the upcoming release of the DePIN Energy Report.
Laser
Okay, then we’ll stop here. Good night to you!
Dylan
Okay, thank you for inviting me to participate in this interview.
You can find my research on Messari or follow me on Twitter, my username is @DylanBane. I will soon be releasing an energy report on DePIN, so don’t miss it if you’re interested in DePIN.
Laser
Yes, I think Dylan is the best researcher in the DEP field. If you are interested in DEP, be sure to follow Dylan on Twitter, as his content contains a lot of excellent information about investing in DEP. Thank you very much for your participation today!
Dylan
Of course, thank you for inviting me!
